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Talk:Sophora
Evidence Just putting this here to summarize the points on the gender debate. Male *Referred to as a "he" in the Memoir 139 Female *Referred to as a "she" by Melo Grunty *Female voice when defeated Either way *Japanese version of Memoir 139 is not gender specific *Melo Grunty doesn't specify a gender in the Japanese version --Kulaguy 21:55, 9 July 2008 (UTC) In the memoir It is said Sophora's character is male? What? Is this true? --Gundam Fan 07:58, 14 June 2007 (UTC) :It's true that it says that in the memoir. But other evidence points to her being female. --CRtwenty 09:34, 14 June 2007 (UTC) :What more evidence do you need? If it came from the mouths, metaphorically, of the top brass, there doesn't need to be speculation. As mentioned before, look at the case of Tsukasa, there can be a change in sex of PC and character. Tsukasa's voice acters were female, yet the character she played was male. So, if the shoe fits, why not wear it? C_R 19:45, 28 July 2007 (UTC) ::I agree. If it's specifically said that Sophora is male, that outweighs what we have to the contrary. What memoir are we talking about though, btw? - Kuukai2 20:41, 28 July 2007 (UTC) ::Sophora is called female by Melo Grunty and I'm sure by another source. Her female voice also accounts to her being female. This outweighs the memoirs, which most people don't even look at.--Biccy 21:08, 28 July 2007 (UTC) :::The Melo Grunty thing is one pronoun that only exists in the translation. As we've seen with Alph and Mireille, they don't always actually know the gender when assigning a pronoun (in many cases you just don't know, but you need to use something). If there's an official source explicitly giving the gender, it outweighs assumptions made for that translation. Female VAs voice male characters all the time, VA gender would only really be helpful the other way around. - Kuukai2 21:34, 28 July 2007 (UTC) ::::Yeah, but this is the only piece of evidence that Sophora is male. The evidence for Sophora being female outweighs the male side. --CRtwenty 06:03, 29 July 2007 (UTC) :::::You're missing the key difference. VA gender and a translation are all very weak, implicit evidence. Specific, officially-given evidence blows them both away. Is it really that hard to understand how the sole official statement would be the final word? Mireille and Alph aren't male just because they were called "he" in the games. Kite, Elk, and Zelkova aren't male just because they have female voiceactors. Does combining these two pieces of inconclusive evidence lead to some sort of 10X bonus that outweighs an official statement? - Kuukai2 21:06, 29 July 2007 (UTC) ::::::Sophora's actress isn't just female. Her VOICE is female. I'm ont sure how it is in the Japanese version, but she doesn't sound remotely masculine in America.--Biccy 22:21, 29 July 2007 (UTC) :::::::I don't really remember, since Sophora is only voiced for that encounter in Moon Tree's @HOME (I don't actually remember Sophora "saying" anything). It may or may not be more androgynous in the original. Either way, if the PC gender is given somewhere I don't see how the voice gender should supercede it. Magi is also a male PC with a female player/voice... - Kuukai2 01:42, 30 July 2007 (UTC) :::::::Yes, but we have two sources within the same game contradicting each other. Melo Grunty says one thing, the Memoir says another. Since both of these sources are pretty official, we have to rely on other hints to determine the answer. --CRtwenty 15:53, 30 July 2007 (UTC) ::::::::Ok, where is this memoir? I was under the impression it was in the manga and specifically said "PC Gender: Male" or something. If it's an event item or something, I can actually check that... - Kuukai2 21:35, 30 July 2007 (UTC) :::::::::It's from Reminisce. You can access the Memoir from the menu. It's basically there to remind you what your current goal is in case you forget, and has a brief recap of the games's events up to that point. I believe the memoir in question appears right after you beat Sophora while raiding Moon Tree's HQ. --CRtwenty 23:53, 30 July 2007 (UTC) ::::::::::Is it 139, Maze? If so, it's completely gender neutral in the Japanese version. In that case, we have only voice to go by, really, since the two translated pronouns cancel out. I no longer see a strong case for either gender, sorry for misunderstanding earlier. - Kuukai2 00:25, 31 July 2007 (UTC) Does the Perfect Guidebook say anything? I don't think voice alone is enough to go by. Since Sophora doesn't even usually speak except in cryptic all-kanji chat messages, it could be "Yuasa" we're hearing. This wouldn't be the first time we hear the player and not the PC. - Kuukai2 08:08, 14 August 2007 (UTC) :It doesn't really matter if it's not enough to go by, though. It's ALL we have. The PC itself is pretty much gender neutral (though I think she looks feminine myself without the hat) so voice is pretty much all we have since call cases of the dub's "male/female" are translated from gendeer-neutral sources and contradict. And sorry if this doesn't make sense, it's 6:30 in the morning :X --Biccy 10:29, 14 August 2007 (UTC) It's possible that it may be a hemorphadite.--Cubia X 10:45, 14 August 2007 (UTC) :No it's not, The World has only two genders. Biccy, if it's not enough to go by and it's all we have then we should go with a "??". For instance, we had to wait until it was spelled out for us that Sophora was Nanase to add that with Kula's blessing, I don't see why gender is different. I also think it might be in the perfect guide, but no one here has it I guess... - Kuukai2 18:35, 14 August 2007 (UTC) Gender Uh, how? - Kuukai2 19:43, 24 February 2007 (UTC) :How not? He looks much more masculine than feminine. For one thing, there's an utter lack of breasts that is seen in every other .hack female except for Sakubo, but I was never sure whether that R:2 avatar was male or female either. *Shrugs* If you think it's too far-fetched, do whatever, but either way, I think we should stick to male pronouns, because I'm a little tired of the whole "he/she" thing everywhere on the page. I mean, he/she is politically correct, but it's still gramatically correct to say he. Or at least that's what my English teacher told me. =/ She's a little pyscho though. :-p Also, Kuukai! *Glomp* It's been a while. Been well? ::Talking to Melo Grunty a few times right after defeating Atoli's Epitaph, I found text confirming Sophora's gender. "Sophora is scary. *mellow* She hardly ever talks. *mellow* But she gave..." Others may check if they so desire. I'll now take the liberty of changing them, if you don't mind. - Bakazuki 06:32, 13 May 2007 (UTC) Silly Melo! Of course she talks! She said "I failed." Which sums up exactly what she did in the G.U. series. oh... and Why the hell did she follow Sakaki? I mean Hiiragi was all ghey love over Sakaki and Matsu owed him one, but why Saphora? WHY?!?! Why make her the villain? No furry love :(... ::Well, if Sophora is Nanase, then Nanase's past with Kestrel could mean that Sakaki introduced her to the guild Moon Tree. ---Hmmm well if that's the case than it'll make more sense. :More likely it was Kaede who introduced her to Moon Tree, since Kaede appears in Alcor. --CRtwenty 06:29, 17 May 2007 (UTC) ~Nonetheless, I don't think Sophora's PC is female. Not only to the lack of breasts but also to the shape of the jaw line in the art and in the game. PCs and IRLs can switch gender...remember the inccident of Tsukasa. I think that even though the IRL is female... Sophora is indeed male.~ Celsius Rain 01:04, 20 May 2007 (UTC) :Not all girls are endowed with noticable breasts. >>;; *cough* Joking aside, if Sophora's PC was indeed male, I doubt that Melo Grunty would refer to Sophora as a female as if he were aware of "reality" and Sophora's indentity within it. If anything, it would make the poor thing confused. >>;; - Bakazuki 04:55, 22 May 2007 (UTC) ::Sophora sounds quite female in her only line. I'm pretty sure that she's a female PC. --CRtwenty 05:31, 22 May 2007 (UTC) :::Maybe we should go ahead and change the references. There's nothing really denying it - her VAs, Lia Sargent and Houko Kuwashima, she has a feminine voice in her... only line, and the outfit is multisex (it's... poofy enough to cover things like breasts), etc. There's more evidence going to "female" than "male" which is something people just assumed >>; --Biccy 17:21, 22 May 2007 (UTC) ::::What's there to change? She's been listed as female for a few days now. --CRtwenty 17:26, 22 May 2007 (UTC) ::Yeah, Sophora looks androgynous enough that if Melo Grunty says "she", Sophora is probably female. The pronoun is enough for me, I like to think they'd actually ask before assigning a gender in the English version of the game (as far as I know there haven't been any goofs like that in the game proper)... I'm curious as to whether or not the Perfect Guide specifies a gender, though... - Kuukai2 17:51, 22 May 2007 (UTC) Albeit, Grunties are described as special NPCs, and that they mimic their masters. Melo belongs to Zelkova and Zelkova would know the real sex of Sophora. The voice means nothing about a PC. I think that even with the type of clothing, that to some extent a pair of breasts would show through the uniform. I say this again, Sophora's PC doesn't have a female jawline... So though the IRL character may be female... I strongly belive the PC is Male. In the article Sophora can be referred to as female... but I think the, "R:2 Gender" should reflect such male characteristics. Celsius Rain 18:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC) :Hitherto unexplained magical mental link to someone who may or may not actually know Sophora's irl gender and for some reason using that gender along with Sophora's in-game name to talk about her is way too speculative a reason. The translation might be wrong, they might have just made up a gender, but in even that case Sophora's gender would just be "??"... (I just checked and Melo says nothing gender-specific in the Japanese version. Since the localization team actually checks many things over with the creators, I think the our policy is to give them the benefit of the doubt. Especially for voiced characters, where you usually want to check this sort of thing...) - Kuukai2 00:09, 24 May 2007 (UTC) Sophora's gender is female in .hack//G.U. If you talk to Melo Grunty twice in Vol. 3 Redemption at the Moon Tree Guild. He clearly states that Sophora is female. :She also has a female voice. I'm not entire;ly sure what's up with the ambiguity...--Biccy 17:42, 28 October 2007 (UTC) ::Ask Kuukai, he's the one who keeps insisting that we keep it. --CRtwenty 18:57, 28 October 2007 (UTC) :::This Wiki is based on proof, not 99.9% likelihood. A completed article doesn't state speculation as fact. There's simply no proof either way for Sophora's gender. Er, I take that back, there's probably proof in the Perfect Guidebook if it lists PC gender like analysis, but no one here seems to have it... Anyway, as you can see on this talk page, both pronouns have been used in the U.S. version, and nothing gender-specific was said in the Japanese version. Hence there's nothing we can glean from the text. As Yuasa is essentially roleplaying a silent character, the scream we hear could be "hers", as she has no need for voice adjustment. It's not the most extremely likely possibility, but it's not impossible, and thus the voice, which in and of itself is still somewhat objective, is not proof. Sophora's appearance is at best androgynous, though in my opinion it's quite masculine. I'm not saying "omg Sophora is a guy", I'm just saying "prove she isn't." It happens to me all the time. Prove it beyond the shadow of a doubt, or change the rules so that anything that it "likely" can be stated as fact. Really, somebody should ask Shinsou if the Perfect Guidebook says anything, though... - Kuukai2 22:45, 28 October 2007 (UTC) English Name They changed Enju's English name, I just forgot what it was. (I know it had a 'ph' in it somewhere though. XD) Hiiragi is the same, but I think they changed Nara to Nala...o.o Now Lion King fans and Harry Potter fans will hate .hack. Yeah, so if someone else has gotten to this part, which I assume someone did, feel free to move the page. - Amaethon :It's Sophora. I just saw it. Kulaguy 02:48, 29 October 2006 (UTC) Nanase? Is Sophora Nanase? Or at least a character made by her? In the intro page to Alcor chapter 1 we see Nanase standing in Moon Tree's @Home, only instead of her normal outfit she's wearing Sophora's clothes and carrying Sophora's hat in her hand. --CRtwenty 19:34, 29 January 2007 (UTC) :I think I mentioned in a comment it's almost certain. She also writes "nin" (from "ninja") a lot, apparently (I don't actually have Alcor), and in Staff Voice one of the people say that Sophora used to observe lucky animals a lot, and still does occasionally. - Kuukai2 23:13, 29 January 2007 (UTC) ::I demand the Nanase stuff be removed. If we're waiting for confirmation that Endrance is Elk, we'll do the same with Sophora. Kulaguy 01:01, 22 February 2007 (UTC) :::Pretty sure we got confirmation for this. I'll try to get someone to scan it. - Kuukai2 01:04, 22 February 2007 (UTC) ::::I agree... even without Kuukai's information the first panel of Alcor ch1 should be evidence enough for the Nanase/Sophora connection. --CRtwenty 01:47, 22 February 2007 (UTC) :::::No it isn't. Just because you want her to be Sophora, doesn't mean she is. Endrance has WAY more evidence on being Elk than Sophora being Nanase. Add to the fact that the freaking page was in black and white, meaning that could've been another character similar to Sophora but with a different color scheme. Hell, CR, even the Rachel and Nuke articles give mention that the people seen in the end of Udeden have a chance of not being them. And if I remember right, you added that little tidbit in. Kulaguy 02:14, 23 February 2007 (UTC) ::::::Fair enough... until further evidence is found this will be turned back into a theory. I sp'ose I should try to remain unbiased in these things. --CRtwenty 02:19, 23 February 2007 (UTC) OH BURN! YOU JUST GOT OWNED, CR! I'M RIGHT AGAIN!! =P Anyways, I'm curious about the source of the image, since it is pretty big evidence.Kulaguy 22:55, 24 February 2007 (UTC) :How does that disprove anything? It's not like we ever saw Sophora's face in Alcor either. It throws suspicion on it yeah, but it doesn't disprove it. Either way, we'll have to wait until Alcor ends before we get a straight answer. --CRtwenty 23:15, 24 February 2007 (UTC) ::Yet you see his/her head. No animal ears thar. Kulaguy 23:51, 24 February 2007 (UTC) :::Could be artistic license. I mean, "Omg the Haseo in Roots isn't the Haseo in Vol.3 because his Xth form hair is different!" - Kuukai2 00:08, 25 February 2007 (UTC) ::::Doubtful. Hairstyle isn't signifacant. Whether or not the character has animal ears is major considering there's a beast and human race in R:2. Kulaguy 00:34, 25 February 2007 (UTC) :::::Sure it is. Just like ears, your haircut is a part of your character model. That wasn't really my point though, my point was that they've done artistic foreshadowing before, and that artistic "backshadowing" doesn't seem out of the question as a possible explanation for Sophora having Nanase's sprout (and lack of ears) in that pic. And again, I'm 99% certain the master guide clears this up, it's just difficult to find a pic... - Kuukai2 07:49, 25 February 2007 (UTC) ::There's no straight answer at the end of Alcor (unless they add something more in the book). And that image comes from here. --Shinsou Wotan 23:19, 24 February 2007 (UTC) ::Btw, we already saw Sophora's face in Vol.2, not sure how that proves anything though. In fact, the page this comes from works against you Kula, the staff member has an imaginary encounter with Sophora, who "tells" (in Sophora-speak) them that long ago he/she used to enjoy watching the Lucky Animals, and occasionally still does. - Kuukai2 23:25, 24 February 2007 (UTC) :::Hmm? How's this work against me? Kulaguy 23:51, 24 February 2007 (UTC) ::::It shows that Sophora's behavior has changed for some reason, and that in the past he/she used to do something that Nanase does. It doesn't *prove* anything, but it helps the Nanase theory a bit. - Kuukai2 00:08, 25 February 2007 (UTC) :::::Ah, though that could also be a reason that Shino is Sophora. Of course that's not true but I saw a few scenes in Roots where Shino would watch the Animals. Anyways, here's how I see the theory. The only reason why CR believed Sophora is Nanase because of one page. In that page we see Nanase, an Alkaid-type character, wearing clothes similar to Sophora and holding a hat similar to Sophora. That's it. And as we can see from the above pic, it's impossible for Nanase and Sophora to be the same PC. Considering that Nanase would have to change her PC name to Sophora, she'd only look like Sophora on the outside, not the inside. Inside, Sophora is a beast. Because of this difference, I see no other evidence that Nanase could be Sophora. Yes, well, anyways. I suck at explaining things so correct me if I'm wrong. Kulaguy 00:34, 25 February 2007 (UTC) ::::::What we saw in Alcor Chapter 1 was a picture of a character with Sophora's character model, holding Sophora's hat and standing in a place that looks like Moon Tree's @Home. We only saw that character from the back, so no facial features were seen. We don't know if that was Sophora, Nanase, or somebody unrelated to both of them. But the caption says something similar to "Back then, I was Nanase" which to me implies that the character we're seeing is a new character created by Nanase. Obviously Nanase and Sophora aren't the same, they're two separate characters. Nanase is a Twin Blade, Sophora is an Adept Rogue. But the question is whether they're controlled by the same person. --CRtwenty 01:00, 25 February 2007 (UTC) :::::::This doesn't matter now. It's been confirmed that Nanase is his PC. Though, one thing I noticed. In the English version of vol 2, when you defeat Sophora's team, the voice you hear with "I've lost..." sounds awfully feminine. Lost one Shouldn't she be listed as a lost one, it says in the article she became one, even if only for a little bit, she should still be added to the list. No she shouldnt she was only a temporary lost one like Matsu and Hiiragi =Weapons Where exactly does the note about hir weapons come from? The Perfect Guidebook or something? Idont' remember anything being mentioned in the games.--Biccy 06:37, 17 April 2008 (UTC) :Yes. - Kuukai2 01:10, 18 April 2008 (UTC)